£1500. Seems a tad high to me considering the current economic climate, so im sure that he could be knocked down a bit.
Regarding pricing, I think that's all been covered and I have nothing to add to the arguments.
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
Patronising - you just don't read what I write! I was suggesting we don't use our reserves for this game Guy! I pointed out we won't have any cash from Aerial or the E&E and if we don't charge enough for the December game we will have to use reserves - not that I was suggesting we do, just a statement of fact.
Stephen - yes, a bad idea to discuss with membership. If asked I'd say 'cheap please', not 'more expensive'. However, if I am presented with a game I can book or not book - that's what we have always done.
Of course we can negotiate, but it doesn't make a great deal of difference - we either have higher player numbers and lower price or vice versa, it's an expensive game to run That was the whole point of my costing illustrations. Do you compromise game tension for the sake of saving a fiver. As a punter I'd prefer a 'better' game that a £30 rabble game.
Oh, and I'm with you on the 'rip off' thing and for Grogan it's easy money - money on a plate in fact. But this is just the opening stage - I asked a price and he gave one - do you think I'm going to spend the rest of the day negotiating a best deal? It's just hours since we left site - this is incredibly fast, we still haven't begun to sort the E&E for christ sake!
Fair doe's...I think you're just seeing a reaction to £1500 , and game prices in high figures.
All the discussion we've had recently have centrered around quality not quantity ., be a shame to reverse this even for such a good site.
Go negotiate , the eyes of the Fuhrer are upon you !
More fundamentally we have to make a decision.
Given that urban sites are expensive AND we prefer low numbers then this dictates a high game fee (to varying degrees but all high).
The alternative is increase the player numbers to lower the game fee - do we want this and in any case, can we get high player numbers in the current climate? And a Russian scenario too!
No two ways about it, this isn't a £15 per head woodland game, we have to cover costs.
More that that, we have to give good value for money. This doesn't mean 'cheap' - as long as players feel they have got their money's worth then it's job done.
I have the confidence of charging £45 per head and I think players will pay the price. Some don't have the money for a £30 game right now, so even if the December game was £35 they still wouldn't have the money!
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OK, let's look at this the other way.
If we charge £45 per head then net of Paypal is £43.27. 40 players @ £43.27 = £1730.80 income.
If the site fee is £1500 the this gives a props/pyro budget of £230.80 and for every £100 the site fee is reduced = additional £100 for props/pyro
If we charge £40 per head then net of Paypal is £38.44. 40 players @ £38.44 = £1537.60 income.
If the site fee is £1500 the this is a non-starter unless A) we have absolutely no props/pyro B) we plunder reserves C) we have more than 40 players D) for every £100 the site fee is reduced = £100 for props/pyro
If we charged £35 per head then the net of Paypal is £33.61. 40 players @ £33.61 = £1344.40 income, a loss. To cover £1500 site fee we need 45 players.
If the site fee is £1500 the this is a non-starter unless A) we have absolutely no props/pyro and we plunder reserves B) we have 45 players and we have absolutely no props/pyro or we plunder reserves C) we have 45 players and every £100 the site fee is reduced = £100 for props/pyro
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My starting point is that 20-a-side is perfect and practically achievable.
Therefore the game fee must be £40 or more (see above).
The higher the game fee, the easier is is to make this a go-er.
Given the current site fee then £45 game fee gives a minimal props/pyro budget.
Any subsequent site fee negotiation will give a higher props/pyro budget.
If there is a substantial site fee reduction then other things become possible - waiving game fees for vehicle use (as Josh does), free ammo to MG users, grenade dumps/distribution for player use, CiA provided MG, medals/ribbons - (or whatever the imagination can conjure up).
Yep, cool. I think we'd struggle to get more than 40 players whatever the cost.
I have no problem charging £45 to be honest.
Have we got anywhere further with this?
Just noticed that Josh has offered one-day places for this Road to Caen game at £55 per head.....on a shite paintball site. 
Any further? It's in December - need to get Summer games sorted first.
I'm not going to start negotiating site costs yet as need to get owner's initial site enthusiasm over first plus I don't want to look as though we are desperate for the site, both of which put us in a weaker position. 
Any further? It's in December - need to get Summer games sorted first.
I'm not going to start negotiating site costs yet as need to get owner's initial site enthusiasm over first plus I don't want to look as though we are desperate for the site, both of which put us in a weaker position.
Yep agreed , leave it until the numbers drop off and then negotiate , it's not going anywhere .
HS - as above couldn't give a shite what Josh charges,I do give a shite that we are seen to be reasonable .
Righty-hoo, time to get this moving.
Now Phoenix Urban has been going for a while numbers seem to be settling. They charge £25 walk-on and £35 hire. Sunday 7th June they have 40 hires and 30 walk-ons, that's £2150 game fees. Looking ahead 14th June 28 hires, 13 walk-on, that's £1,305 and they are still booking.
They have just closed their woodland site as the council have decided its a 'conservation area'. Phoenix as a temporary measure have opened the urban on Saturdays but these are getting much lower booking figures than Sundays.
To remind you, Grogan's opening quote to us was £1500 flat fee on a Sunday or £30 per head on Saturday. Assuming we charge £35 a head and 40 paying punters (as Glocke) then Saturday is doable, giving us £165 or so after paypal. Or £135 loss on Sunday. Increase to 44 players on Sunday and it is break even.
Summary
I think we have a weak case for reducing the Sunday site fee. If it can't be budged then by increasing player numbers slightly then we will have covered costs and prop costs will have to come out of reserves. However, this carries a risk - is it possible to get 22 Red Army players? If not then reserves will take a big hit. It may be possible to play a game 15 Russian vs 29 German but this will require careful thought so that Ruskies don't feel hard done by.
Saturday certainly looks the most viable financially - and the lower the site fee can be negotiated, the less likely reserve funds will be plundered and the less the game quality will be compromised by increasing player numbers.
It's not ideal but are chaps happy for a Saturday game? Errr battle?
LFU must be really shit these days for that many to go to PU 
Agree with your logic, Saturday is the way to go . I will not agree to subsidising Grogan from central reserves though , if we can't get the numbers- we'll cancel .
December Saturdays are:
5th, 12th, 19th, 26th
Clearly 26th is out of the question and I'll venture to say 19th will be difficult.
Josh has his 'Operation Moonchild' on the weekend of 5th/6th "It will be a 20 player Brit only game with 20 crew spaces, this is not one to miss!!!" No other details than that, I'm guessing its vs Germans - perhaps its something to do with this: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GMkZcL2gOPIC&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=operation+moonchild&source=bl&ots=MMKZU77RJL&sig=dQUb51uWNssCrZKnT6yU1z1N9Tk&hl=en&ei=9_QrSrX6FNW4jAeJ0cHgCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5
Anyhoo, if it IS vs German 'crew' then we will have a bit of competition for players but I'm not unduly concerned.
So, Saturday 5th Dec or Saturday 12th December?
Alternatively, we could put the game in November as there are none at the moment. Its not as though December will be much bleaker than November and we certainly won't have snow in either month!
Debate plz
Saturday events in December for me are a no-go. I'd have to take Friday off, and quite frankly, that ain't gonna happen as work goes absolutely mental for a period of about 4 to 5 weeks before xmas.
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
OK, its not commercially viable to run it on a Sunday, so that makes it a November event?
Those dates seem fine. Happy for it in November too.
Still trying to get an answer from Grogan - heard whispers that the property owner has gone into administration...
Definitely sommat up - no bookings at urban after next weekend. More digging to do!
Need to think quickly on this one!
As an alternative, how about the Unreal site as the edge of Stalingrad, just entering the city? Germans occupying Russian barracks or just industrial complex with meagre housing?
Gadge has opened his big gob and more or less publicly said PBI will be running a game there (despite not having seen it). Would be awesome if we get there first!
Are you up for a site visit Stephen?
The army camp is located in Tern Hill which is within 10 Minutes of the rural town of Market Drayton in Shropshire with easy access along main roads. The site boasts 12.56 acres of space with over 40 permanent structures including hangars, houses, warehouses and several underground air raid shelters.
Yep, I'm at Kerstin's this weekend and she's working on Sunday so I've a few hours to burn then, although I think their next game in on Saturday.
12.5 acres is tiny though and walk-on fees are £25.....ouch.
Perhaps we ought to wait for Guy - this would make a visit after Ariel though...
There is a lot on the site for 12.5 acres though, bet Phoenix Urban was much smaller.
Hmmm, true.
TBh I suggest first site recce and bagging a date is Stephens bird, I already did 200 miles last week to recce GC for Jeds, can't say I'm in a rush to go to Shropshire now.
If it's looks a go-er then obviously will come for a proper recce when we start looking at a game plan, might even be working by then !
